Ancient History (2/2) [Re:Contribution of Backward Classes..]
[... continued from the previous post...]
> I do now know who your Dr. Vartak is, but I doubt he has examined
> manuscripts or has any solid evidence backing up his claims. If
Dr. Vartak's work has been acknowledged by scholars in India, although
most of whom apparently disagree with his Mahabharat dateline. He has
considered various aspects in dating the Mahabharat. Also, importantly, he
has obtained the astronomical records by evaluating the (Sanskrit) verses
from the Mahabharat text (B.O.R.I) directly, and not refering to some
translation. Since I myself am not in a position to attest Dr. Vartak's
credentials, in the following post is presented an opinion of Wrangler
Chandratreya which should give a fair idea of Dr. Vartak's work methodology,
the postive points of this work as well as the drawbacks. However, before
doing so, you may want to read his work that I post [repost] as a
appendix to this reply. You then will be able to form an opinion for
yourself. And I am sure that he does not expect indologists of the world
to fall at his feet for whatever studies he has done.
> Prasad, do you realize how ridiculous your claims are? If you can
> give me a single solid piece of archeological, textual, or inscriptional
> evidence of your 7323 B.C. date, I would be very happy. This, by
Quoting Dr. Vartak's work, I stated the birth date of Ram as 4th December
7323 B.C, which Mani Varadarajan findsd ridiculous and requested for any
evidence to this proposition. What better textual reference for this
calculation can there be than the annals of the Ramayan itself! Sage
Valmiki has meticulously noted down the planetary configurations when the
incidents during Rama's time took place, encoding which, Dr. Vartak's has
obtained the Ramayanic chronology. Please refer to a subsequent post for
The Mahabharat contains list of kings and family histories of the heroes
of that era (eg. Pandav), which when traced back can provide an estimate
of Shree Ram's era. I however must admit that, as far as I know, not much
work has been done of the dating of Ramayanic events. The conservative
date of that era falls to about 4500 B.C -- which is altogether not
impossible a date. However, 5500 B.C seems to be more like it.
Some clues from Sumerian clay tablets, Isin and Kish chronicles which
approximate the date of the first king (Ukhu == Iksh-vaku) of the first
dynasty of Sumeria to be 8350 B.C. Waddell states that the names of kings
in the above records remarkably tally to those of Indian Solar and Lunar
dynasties. This suggests the antiquity of the the Solar dynasty, and the
geneologies can be followed to determine Shree Ram's Era.
It is known from Shrimad Bhagvat that Shree Ram was (approx.) 75th in
Ikshwaku lineage and that 60 generations passed between from Shree Ram.
Assuming 40 years for each generation (people lived longer at that time),
and assuming the first Ikshwaku king at 8350 B.C, we see that Ramayan
falls at about 5350 B.C and that Mahabharat 3000 B.C., the latter which
is known. Ramayanic date therefore falls at about 5500 B.C.
The deities in the Ramayanic era (eg: Varun, Rudra, Marutgan, Indra) are
similar to those worshiped (mentioned) in the Vedas. These deities are
altogether different from those worshipped during the Mahabharat time.
Ramayan therefore must have occured when the RgVed (one of its stages)
was being composed. Tilak, Ketkar, etc. have calculated the last phases
of RgVed to be between 6000-4000 B.C. Ramayan could have occured during
this time, or even earlier.
> the way, does *not* even coincide with the traditional claims of
> Sri Rama's antiquity, which take him back to Treta Yuga.
That you have mentioned the Yuga theory, namely, by traditional claims
Shree Ram existed in the Treta Yuga, I assume your reference to the
unbelievably large number of years in each era (Kali Era equals 432,000
years). How then did Ram exist in 7323 B.C (according to Sr. Vartak) ?
The large numbers are not to be taken literally (which are in non-real
time frame), and more so, the Yuga theory (real time calculations) needs
to be understood. One theory by Swami Yukteshwar (derived from Hindu
texts) gives 4800 years for the Satya Yuga, 3600 for Treta, 2400 for
Dwappar and 1200 years for Kali (cycle of 12000*2 years=24000 years).
Dwapaar has 2000 years, with 200 years of "sandhee" period on on either
sides. Now, assuming Kaliyug began in 3102 B.C, the beginning of Dwapaar
concludes to be around 5500 B.C. Subtracting the "sandhee" of Treta, the
end of Treta comes to around 5750 B.C, which is closer to be popular
estimate of Shree Ram's date. Yet another theory, apparently from the
Soorya Siddhanta, provides the span of Kaliyuga to be 2160 years, and
that of Dwaapar twice of that (4320 years) and so on. From these numbers,
end of Treta Yuga falls around 7500 B.C, which is closer to Dr. Vartak's
estimate of the Ramayanic Era.
I believe that Dr. Vartak's astronomical calculations need to be
validated by other scholars corroborating the intricate mathematical
calculations and assumptions to astral references. As far as
archaeological evidences (if at all any are found!) are concerned, highly
rough estimates of the situation of that long a time can only be
obtained. Also, interpreting the excavations may not be an easy task and
could only be done relating to literary references. Whatever it is, to
fix the dating of the Ramayana would require some time and I believe,
that it won't be too long before it is done. Dr. Vartak's work however
provides some good pointers to initiate research on the topic.
Ancient history of India ends with the Mahabharat War and mediaeval
history starts with that date. The post-glacial era (8000 B.C onwards
approx.) saw the the Ramayanic Era, and before that date existed the
Vedas, some Samhitas and other scriptures. The astronomical records in the
latter texts provide dates of remote antiquity, and according to Tilak,
the Vedic hymns were sung in the post-glacial era who had inherited the
knowledge from their antidiluvian forefathers. Totally rejecting the
dates mentioned in the scriptures and branding them as "pious frauds" by
Brahmanas is unwarranted. Atleast dates of speculative nature should be
put forth as a start, and drawing of a "complete" picture needs to be
> P.S. Why the historicity of what is undoubtedly "epic" literature
> is so important confounds me. These tails have been embroidered
In an earlier post, I had provided "some interpretations" of the
Mahabharat and stated that among others, the great work can be viewed
from an historical point of view. The importance of historical
studies is too stellar to mention. Just as an observation, note how
the Britishers skillfully (?) succeeded in enslaving the minds of Indians
by merely manipulating history and undermining the religion of the
country and its people! The myth of Aryan Invasion created by the
English to meet their political gains, and now so deeply embedded in
the minds of Indians, has caused innumerable schims between in the
country! Merely by educating the people of a country to ridicule and
belittle the antiquity of their history, a handful of aliens were able to
rule a vast polulation! The history of a country determines the current
mindset of the people and its study and analysis determines the future of
the nation. To set aside history as merely an academic exercise (which
also is necessary) is a sign of dishonesty and ignorance.
As an addition to the above, I propose to post the following articles.
a) Mahabharat : A Myth or a Reality
b) Dating of Mahabharat by Dr. P.V. Vartak
c) Opinion on Wran. Chandratreya on b)
d) Dating of Mahabharat by Patnaik
e) Astronomical Dating of the Mahabharat by Dr. Saraswat
f) Astronomical Dating of the Ramayan by Dr. Vartak
* Again note that the consensus on the dating of the Mahabharat is at
3100 B.C. and may/or may not necessarily be correct. However, I am posting
Dr. Vartak's work in light of academic interest and also, because it may
provide some valid pointers for further research.
I hope you (and other netters) find the articles useful and informative.
Thankyou for your patience in reading the above.
With regards and best wishes,