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Re: Krishna is the Original Form
Satyabrata Pradhan (satya@mech.ubc.ca) wrote:
: In article <3dfpg7$8uo@ucunix.san.uc.edu>, susarla@great-gray.owlnet.rice.edu
: (H. Krishna Susarla) writes:
: |> Bhagavad-Gita 11.51 - 11.54
: |>
: |> "When Arjuna thus saw Krsna in His original form, he said: O
: |> Janaardana, seeing this humanlike form, so very beautiful, I am now
: |> composed in mind, and I am restored to my original nature."
: |>
: |> "The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: My dear Arjuna, this
: |> form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult to behold. Even the
: |> demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see this form, which is
: |> so dear."
: |>
: |> "The form you are seeing with your transcendental eyes cannot be
: |> understood simply by studying the Vedas, nor by undergoing serious
: |> penances, nor by charity, nor by worship. It is not by these means
: |> that one can see Me AS I AM."
: |>
: |> "My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be
: |> understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen
: |> directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My
: |> understanding."
: |>
: |> Translations provided by his divine grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami
: |> Prabhupada.
: |>
: |> Krishna clearly says within these verses that His original form is
: -----------------
: |> that of Lord Krishna (and not impersonal Brahman, or any of the other
: |> Vishnu-forms). And the only way to see this form is by devotional service.
: --------------- ------------------
: The concept of Original Form appears only in the first paragraph
: mentioned above which is not told by Lord. It does not appear in
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How did you come to this conclusion? Have I misunderstood you? The
Bhagavad-Gita was spoken by Lord Krsna, who is the Supreme Lord, or
Bhagavan.
: any of the statements of Lord Krishna. Lord talks of His Form (not
: His Original Form). Can one say that the concept of Original form
: is Swami Prabhupada's interpretation?
No. This is what is contained in scripture. Reread the quotes above.
11.52 clearly says that His form as Krsna is very difficult to behold,
even by great personalities like Lord Brahma and Lord Shiva, as well
as the demigods.
Now look at 11.53:
"My dear Arjuna, only by undivided devotional service can I be
understood as I am, standing before you, and can thus be seen
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
directly. Only in this way can you enter into the mysteries of My
understanding."
So the Lord is clearly saying that His two-handed form is "as I am."
So, this must be His original form. He can be worshipped in His other
transcendental forms, such as Narayana, Rama, Maha-Vishnu, and so on,
but these other forms come from Lord Krsna.
Swami Prabhupada includes some verses from outside the Gita in his
purport to 11.54 which supports the idea that God's original form
is as Lord Krsna. I will post a few of these:
yasyaika-nisvasita-kaalam athaavalambya
jiivanti loma-vila-jaa jagad-anda-naathaah
visnur mahaan sa iha yasya kalaa-viseso
govindam aadi-purusam tam aham bhajaami
"The Mahaa-Visnu, into whom all the innumerable universes enter
and from whome they come forth again simply by His breathing
process, is a plenary expansion of Krsna. Therefore I worship
Govinda, Krsna, the cause of all causes." (Brahma-samhitaa 5.48)
iisvarah paramah krsnah
sac-cid-aananda-vigrahah
anaadir aadir govindah
sarva-kaarana-kaaranam
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead is Krsna, who has a body of
eternity, knowledge, and bliss. He has not beginning, for He is the
beginning of everything. He is the cause of all causes."
(Brahma-samhitaa 5.1)
: One can easily say that "His form" (which is referred in the above
: quotations) is that of "Lord Krishna", not anything beyond that.
: Other things are only individual interpretations.
: In the above verses, Lord Krishna does not say that His form is
: not that of impersonal Brahman or any of the Vishnu-forms.
Being Krsna originally implies not being anything else originally.
If the two-handed form of Krsna is the cause of all causes, then
all other Vishnu-forms and the impersonal Brahman must come from this
form.
: In the last unserlined statement, there are two things.
: First is the objective, i.e. to see Lord's Form. And the
: second is the way to reach the objective. Lord says that the
: only way to see him is by devotional service. But, is there
: only one objective, i.e. to see Lord, which is supreme?
Well, i suppose there are other objectives. You can make your
objective to dwell in the impersonal Brahman, but this form
of deliverance is temporary, and such souls end up falling back
to the material world. Vijay and Jai, the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha,
went into Brahman after their three births as Visnu's enemies, but
then they had to fall back to Earth until they were taught
to surrender to Krsna Himself.
You can make your objective one of Krsna's four-handed Vishnu forms.
This is a transcendental approach, but since Krsna's two-handed
form is more attractive and more dear, why not make His original
form your objective?
: If the answer is no, then devotional service is not the only
: path that can be reccommended by a teacher. This is because,
: when the objective changes the approach to achieve it may change.
Sure, but if one wants an objective that leads to eternal bliss and
transcendental existence, one takes to devotional service, so one
can see Lord Krsna. Even if wants to worship another form of Krsna,
devotional service is still required.
: Let us accept that the answer is "yes". Then why Lord Krishna advised
: Arjuna to fight in the war rather than doing some devotional service?
: Or, can one do devotional service by fighting?
Earlier in the same chapter, it is clear that the Kaurava army was already
doomed. See 11.26-27 and 11.32-34. Arjuna is asked to fight because he
is no more than Lord Krsna's instrument. It was his specific duty to fight
in a war for dharma, not to take up the renounced order simply to get
away from duty. His duty was to follow Lord Krsna.
: |>
: |> Mayavaadis can argue about it all they want, cry "oh, that's just *your*
: |> interpretation," and whine about fundamentalism/fanatacism/any-other-ism,
: |> but that's what the Gita says. Take it or leave it.
: |>
: In Gita, Lord Krishna does not talk anything about the arguments of MAyAvAdis.
Actually, He does. Verses 12.1-12.6 and 7.24 (among others) clearly condemn
the Mayavaadi argument, which is that the impersonal form is superior and
that Krsna is only a manifestation of Brahman.
: In your opinion, can the above statement be your (not anything personal here)
: interpretation?
Can it be there is some audacity in you constantly accusing Swami Prabhupada
of interpretation, without even proposing anything resembling a counter
argument? I have quoted from scripture from a bona fide, spiritual master.
What authority are you basing your ideas on that makes you think that
what I have posted is merely an interpretation? Maybe you are interpreting,
but this is not what the devotees do. The Vedic literature must be heard
without interpretation or speculation. The Gita is the word of God, so it
must be taken as the most perfect presentation of spiritual knowledge.
I fail to see how a fallible, mortal being can pronounce an opinion that
is superior to the opinion of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
: The concept of "Take it or leave it" is neither told by Lord Krishna in Gita
: nor an integral part of devotional service.
And what is? 50% acceptance of scripture? Maybe you are thinking one
can call himself a devotee by believing in only part of what the Lord has
said and then ignoring everything else which conflicts with his
understanding (the mayavadi approach, to be sure). It would seem to me
that if one is interested in God, one must accept all of His words rather
than simply taking one little bit of it and making up your own personal
belief system. If you think this is not the case, quote a verse to
support your position. I'm only citing common sense here.
Haribol,
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- Hari Krishna Susarla - "Engage your mind always in thinking of Me, -
- susarla@owlnet.rice.edu - become My devotee, offer obeisances to Me -
- Rice University - and worship Me. Being completely absorbed -
- Class of 1995 - in Me, surely you will come to Me." -
- Biochemistry - -- Bhagavad-Gita 9.34 -
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HARER NAMA HARER NAMA
HARER NAMAIVA KEVALAM
KALAU NASTY EVA NASTY EVA
NASTY EVA GATIR ANYATHA
"IN THIS AGE OF QUARREL AND HYPOCRISY THE ONLY MEANS OF DELIVERANCE IS
CHANTING THE HOLY NAME OF LORD KRSNA. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. THERE IS
NO OTHER WAY. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY."
-- Brhan-naradiya purana 38.126
