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Advaita 2
From: sadananda@anvil.nrl.navy.mil (K. Sadananda)
Manishji says:
>BG 12.5 confirms this.
> "For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal
> feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make
> progress in that discipline is always very difficult for those who
> are embodied."
Advaita is duhkha (B.g. 12.5)
>Hence Bhagawan Ramana Maharshi statement
No thanks, let us stick to Sruti.
>Manishji you said that I have the audacity to define Bhakti.
>The problem is I have the audacity even to repeat it inspite of your
>protests because that is a fact.
Please quote the SAstra that you have used for your definition, we are not
interested in your speculation. The definition according to the SAstra is:
hRShikeNa hRShikeSa sevanam bhakti ucyate
"Bhakti is defined as engaging all of the senses in the service of the
master of the senses, Krishna."
Please drop you personal definitions and go according to the SAstra. As
you claim to be a vedAntin, so rely on SAstra, not on the dualities of
your mind: SAstra yonitvAt.
>Purification of the mind with karma, bhakti,
>gyana are necessary. Neither you can walk into the sanctum sanctorum by
>just chanting Hari Krishna mantra. That Krishna consciousness has to dawn
>on you.
And the process of that dawning is itself the chanting of Hare Krishna. It
is the purification process as well as the prayojana.
>It can only come when you have, what Krishna calls it, sraddaya
>parayo petah, ever stead fast with supreme faith to that Krishna - and who
You must have faith in _Krishna_. Not faith that I am Krishna.
>is that Krishna - that who transcends the time and space - So whatever you
>think is not that
And He who was present personally before Arjuna was neither bound by time
nor space. That very form of Krishna, with two hands, standing before
Arjuna as his friend and guide is the very form of Krishna that we should
meditate on. We should not be interes ted in anything else but that, as
even the impersonal Brahman effulgence is resting on the supreme potency
of the Lord. Only the foolish think that the manifested has come from the
unmanifested. Indeed, what has never been, will never be, and what has bee
n, will never cease to be. Krishna is the source of everything including
the Brahman effulgence, ahaM sarvasya prabhavah, mattah sarvam pravartate,
>reality there no difference, when you say Krishna consciousness and when I
>say Atman consciousness.
No they are not same. That is why the word consciousness is used.
Consciousness means thoughts. To be always conscious of Krishna, to always
be thinking of Krishna, that is Krishna consciousness. Your own
speculations are useless, as you yourself said, "T hey are only from the
mind." But Krishna consciousness is beyond the plane of the mind and
intelligence, it is one the plane of cit, consciousness. And that cit is
non-material, it is spiritual.
>That is exactly why I have no problem in your worshipping Krishna.
>But do not say I am in the wrong path.
That is explained in Bg 9.11. Those who worship Krishna thinking He is
material are equally unintelligent as the atheists.
> Krishna himself says that
>There are two paths that have been prescribed by me from the time
>immemorial.
>Through Gyana yoga of the sankhyas and through karmayoga of the yogins.
>Obviously both paths must lead to the same.
But one path is direct and the other path is indirect. The ultimate goal
is devotional service, to attain the lotus feet of Krishna, so the
advaitans, if they actually advance on their path, will ultimately come to
realizing that Krishna is the Supreme Pe rson and that we must serve Him.
>Hence my statement the true
>Bhakti has to culminate in the knowledge of the Brahman. How can you a
One who is in bhakti is in full knowledge because he knows the Supreme
Lord Krishna. UpaniShadas say, he who knows the Brahman knows everything.
Krishna is the Brahman, so the bhaktas know everything. Real jNAna
culminates in Bhakti.
>Sarvadharman partityasch mamekam saranamvraja
>Ahantwa sarva papebho moksha isyuami ma sujah|
You quote a verse where Krishna says surrender to _ME_ and you say it
means something beyond Krishna. You need a new lesson in common sanskrit
as well as in advaita-vAda. When someone says _ME_ who does that refer to?
"Give me a cup of water" means what? Pour the water in the air and say "I
am offerig the water to the indivisible, all-pervading Sadananda, who is
also present within the atoms." What nonsense is that. "Surrender to Me"
means surender to Krishna, there is no other meaning.
>This is the sloka the Vishitadvaitins adore as the charama sloka.
>Someone translated in the internet as Sarvadharman as all religions (except
>I suppose the Bhedha- Abheda philosophy).
One must give up all religions and surrender to Krishna, surrender means
you must follow His instructions, and His instructions are
acintya-bhedAbheda-tattva-vAda.
>Dharma is the very first of the
>purusharthas (dharma, artha, kama and moksha). Ones Dharma is at least to
>do the nitya, nimittika karmas , avoiding kamya and nishidda karmas - the
>daily and occasional obligatory duties which depend on his ashrama.
Dharma has two meanings, namely conditional activity, and constitutional
activity (when in reference to the body and soul respectively).
Conditional activity means all activities and rituals in relation to the
body, which are collectively called religion.
sarva dharmAn parityajya means abandon are varities of religion, that is
very clear from the words.
>No one can remain even for a single moment from doing karma, since everyone
>will be helplessly propelled to do karma because of Prakriti and their
>gunas
So therefore one should engage in activity for Krishna, and in that way he
will become free from the result. That is the meaning to the second half
of the previous Sloka:
ahaM tvAm sarva pApebhyo
mokShayiSyama mA Suca:
If you surrender to Krishna in devotional service (as defined in the
SAstras, not how it is defined by you), then you are relieved of all
sinful reactions. You have no need to fear from the modes of material
nature. This is confirmed in the seventh chapte r of Bhagavad-gItA.
>So what dharmas I can leave. What dharmas Bheda-Abheda teachers have left!
All material conditional activities are given up for constitutional
activities, that is surrender to Krishna as defined by the SAstra:
hRShikena hRShikeSa sevanam bhaktir ucyate
"Engaging all the senses in the service of the Lord of the senses,
Krishna, is defined as bhakti."
>And what is that I can surrender?
I can surrender all my activities, body, mind, and soul, at the lotus feet
of SrI Krishna.
>The entire body, mind and intellect belongs to Him.
Yes, He is hRShikeSa, therefore you are obligatted to engage all the
senses in His service. That is your offering. You are His part and parcel,
so your duty is to serve the Supreme whole.
We must learn what _is_ bhakti. Bhakti means we engage in the service of
Krishna with no material desires, neither poluted by karma nor jNAna.
>Unfortunately we only repeat like parrots but do not really mean that.
Are you speaking for yourself, or have you become the spokesman for the
entire universe?
>That is the prappatti, that is saranagati, and that
You have _no_ idea what is prappatti, nor what is Shad-viddhA-SaranAgati,
so don't pretend to have the definitions of them all. The definitions are
given in the SAstra, so please quote me what is SaranAgati. Don't miss
this point, I very much want to see the verses you are going by.
>and hence logically whether I say I have reached Krishna conscious
>state bu surrendering completely or I have realized Aham Brahmasmi state by
>surrendering ignorence of identification with the upadhies-- these are
But in the second case you have accepted the Supreme ignorance of thinking
you are the source of the entire creation. Is that not ahaM kAra? Please
answer this simple point.
>- surrenderece to the Lord who says mamekam
>saranamvraja - All I can give up is the notion that they are mine
So if they are not yours then give them to who owns them! If you find a
wallet in the street, it is wrong to keep it, it is wrong to ignore it, it
is only right to give it back to the owner. So engage the body in the
service of Krishna.
>Only thing that is left of me that I am that chaitanya swabhava.
Yes, that is your nature (bhAva), but that does not mean you are the
Absolute. You are part and parcel of the absolute, just as a drop of ocean
water is part and parcel of the ocean. It never become the ocean, nor is
it ever losing its existence in the oc ean. The molecule exist eternally,
and its nature (bhAva) is the same as the ocean. That is, it is one in
quality with the ocean.
Ho hum Shivohum.
