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Re: Definition of Hindu (Was defn by VKRao) very long

In article <4cvint$2c@babbage.ece.uc.edu>,
Vidhyanath K. Rao <vidynath@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>In article <4cnn7u$ob2@babbage.ece.uc.edu>,
>GOPAL  Ganapathiraju Sree Ramana <gopal@ecf.toronto.edu> wrote:
>>In article <4cgd3i$jgv@babbage.ece.uc.edu>,
>>Vidhyanath K. Rao <vidynath@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>In article <DKBuD9.968@ecf.toronto.edu>
>>>gopal@ecf.toronto.edu (name_is_nothing_but_fame) wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is reg the definition of the term Hindu given by VK Rao:
>>>>[Paragraphs with * before them are excerpts from V.Rao's post]
>>
>>
>>>To decide whether Jainism is part of
>>>Hinduism, one must also ask Jains. If Jains refuse to call their religion
>>>a sect of Hinduism, then what Hindus think does not matter.
>>
>>
>>>>(h) My understanding of vira shiva (lingaayat) -- based on discussion
>>>>with a lingaayat -- is that they do not accept the authority of vedas.
>>
>>>Some Lingaayats consider their religion to be separate, not an `offshoot
>> ^^^^^
>>>of Hinduism' (see, Ishwaran, `Speaking of Basava'). Whom do I trust?
>>[only emphasis added by gopal]
>>
>>>>* Another argument that S. Rao offers is `X is a Hindu, but he does not
>>>>  follow my interpretation of Vedas. So he is not Vedic.'. This is
>>>>  non-sense because, Hindus have always had the freedom to interpret
>>>>  Veda. They cannot be said to disregard the Veda just because they
>>>>  they differ from you. [Such arguments are common in sectarian
>>>>  polemics. But Eastern Orthodox do not cease to be Christians because
>>>>  some evangelist says so.]
>>
>>>[Note that S. Rao was not responding to my post in the next line.
>>>Gopal's editing, which cleverly omitted the usual `>'s for my post,
>>>is likely to mislead those who count `>'s to follow the sequence.]
>>
>>(i have clearly stated that your statements were preceded with *. i
>>have put your statements on an issue at one place show that i  find
>>possibly some contradiction. if you can, show that there is no such
>>contradiction in your arguments)
>
>The point is that S. Rao was responding to an eariler article, not the
>quotes preceeded by the '*'. Mucking around with the '>' or its equivalent
>obscures the thread. That is my complaint.
>
>
>>>>[following one line from S Rao]
>>>>> 3> [this definition implies that] Jains and Buddhists are not Hindus.
>>>>* So now Buddhists are Hindus too?
>>
>>>>Are you saying that Buddists do not cease to be hindus because some
>>>>buddists say so? (before arguing 'all' buddists say so --or 'all' eastern
>>>>orthodox's say so-- please define what you mean by a buddist. if you say
>>>>buddists are those who consider buddha as god, heena yanis dont count but
>>>>most hindus count. if you say one who will believe in buddist philosophy,
>>>>many hindus count. if you say buddist is one who clamis he is one and not
>>>>the one who does not claim so, then all those vaishnavas that claim
>>>>themselves to be vaishnavas but not as hindus, cease to be hindus).
>>
>>>This is the kind of deliberate misconstruction that Gopal uses instead
>>>of real arguments. The thread of posts and the question mark at the
>>>end of the quote from my post clearly imply that I do not consider
>>>Buddhists to be Hindus. The reason, given by various people for the
>>>last 2000 years, is that they reject the authority of Vedas.
>>
>>There is no "misconstruction" here.  i am just showing the inconsistency
>>in your stand from your position on evangilists.
>>
>>i am not saying that you have claimed  budhists to be part of hinduism. 
>>
>>i am just trying to link your statement on Eastern Orthodox: 
>>
>>"Eastern orthodox do not cease to be christian just becasue some 
>>evangilists say so". 
>>
>>on this basis can we (or will you) argue that budhists are also part 
>>of hinduism because "they dont cease to be hindus, just because some 
>>budhists say so?" 
>>(we are dealing with the term hindu here so it is valid in this thread), 
>>
>>you "might", then, argue that "no. not just "some" budhists but "all"
>>budhists say so... that is, they say they do not belong to hinduism, so, 
>>they are not hindus'-- as against "some" evangilists saying so w.r.t. 
>>eastern orth,....  and therefore budhists are no-hindus.
>>
>>Then, if you want to say that "all " budhists say so, then we need to 
>>understand who are those "all", because there are certainly budha 
>>worshippers in hindu fold, who do not get included in that "all 
>>budhists say so" argument.
>>
>>on the other hand, if you  argue that it is not 
>>necessary for "all" budhists to say that they do not belong to 
>>hinduism, and that those who say so do not belong to hinduism, 
>>and those who do not say so belong to hinduism (see also your 
>>argument on jains and lingayats, specifically the latter for similarity):
>>
>>Then: the evangilists saying eastern orthodx are no christians can make 
>>them non-christian[because they say so]
>>
>>But interestingly we will then, in this hypothetical scenario, have two
>>corralaries:
>>
>>(1) Some vaishnavites who claim they are not hindus, cease to be hindus.
>>(2) We have a simpler definition for the term hindu (one who considers
>>explicitely or implicitely to be a hindu)
>
>Here are the two statements expressed as logical sentences with variables:
> (1) Xs cease to be Ys of Xs say so.
> (2) Xs do not cease to be Ys if Z says so and Z is not an X.
>
>The hypotheses, on who is talking, are disjoint. I fail to see how they
>can contradict each other when they apply to disjoint domains.
>

If you accept (1) alone it will suffice: X= a vaishnava, Y= hindu;
that will set the entire debate to rest, that those  vaishnavas who
refuse to be called hindus, cease to be hindus.
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