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Re: ARTICLE : Puraanas (was Re: ARTICLE : Just say no to "Hinduism" (was Re: ARTICLE

H. Krishna Susarla (susarla.krishna@tumora.swmed.edu) wrote:

: The Puraanas themselves make the distinction. They are divided into 3
: classifications (taamasic, raajasic, and saattvik). It's not the case that
: the Puraanas in the first two are simply ignored. They do contain some
: correct information, but the saattvik ones are considered more
: authoritative, owing to statements throughout the Vedic literatures
: praising the mode of goodness as the best quality for acquiring knowledge. 
: 
: Gaudiiya Vaishnavas regard the Bhaagavatam as the topmost authority, based
: on various evidence given throughout the Puraanas and in the Bhaagavatam
: itself. Other Vaishnava sampradaayas may subject the Puraanas (including
: the Bhaagavatam) to the scrutiny of what can be confirmed in the shruti.
: But in either the case, much of what is in the Puraana is accepted
: conditionally.
: 
: 
: Not really. At least for Gaudiiyas, the "selective reading" and its
: necessity are based on what the Puraanas themselves say:
: 
: pa~ncaa`nga`m ca puraa.na`m syaad aakhyaanam itarat sm.rtam
: saatvike.su ca kalpe.su maahaatmyam adhika`m hare.h
: raajase.su ca maahaatmyam adhika`m brahma.no vidu.h
: tadvad agnes' ca maahaatmya`m taamase.su s'ivasya ca
: sa`nkiir.ne.su sarasvatyaa.h pit.rr.naa`m ca nigadyate
: 

The Skanda Purana which is tamasic contains the Satyanarayana Katha and
Vasudeva Mahatmya.  The Naradiya Purana which is sattvik contains a stotra
to Ganapati Bhagawan where it says Bhakti to Him results in Moksha.   Do
you accept these various Puranas are sattvik, rajasik, or tamasik as a
whole or only in various parts?  If as a whole the Satyanarayana Katha one
of the most popular rites of Vaishnavas in Gujarat should be labeled
tamasik.  If in parts, which parts?  And where does the Mahabharata fit
into this?  It is on the same level as the Puranas and contains verses
extolling Shiva Bhagavan and Vishnu Bhagavan.

: This is in Matsya Puraa.na (53.65, 68-69)
: 
: "A history is called a Puraana if it has the five defining characteristics;
: otherwise it is called an Aakhyaana. The saattvik Puraanas primarily
: glorify Lord Hari; the raajasic Puraanas, Lord Brahmaa; and the taamasic
: Puraanas, Lord Shivaa and Durgaa, along with Agni. The Puraanas in mixed
: modes glorify Sarasvatii and the Pitaas."
: 
: There was another quote from the same Puraana as this that was quoted in
: A.S. Raghavan's book on Vishishtaadvaita. That one explained that the
: different Puraanas were spoken in different kalpas. Apparently, there are
: kalpas where Lord Shiva's worship predominates, kalpas where Vishnu's
: worship predominates, etc. It was explained in the very last line that only
: in the kalpas where Vishnu's worship predominates do people attain the
: param gatih, or supreme destination. I don't have that book with me now,
: but I think I posted it a long time back on the same newsgroup. I'll see if
: I can't dig it up at some point.
:
While this may settle the issue for some Puranas, the Shiva Purana
posseses the 5 lakshanas and belongs to this kalpa.
 
: Anyway, the point here is that there is a clear hierarchy between Puraanas,
: and if one wants to claim they are all on the same level, one is going to
: run into trouble. 

Only if one is committed to untenable assumptions.
 
: The Puraanas themselves solve this problem by pointing
: out the classification. 

All you have proved is there is some sort of classification.  You have not
satisfactorily explained what the practical upshot is for someone who
wants to know Dharma.
 
: As far as Gaudiiya Vaishnavas are concerned, other
: Puraanas exist for those who might be inimical to Vishnu. 

It would seem odd that works designed for people inimical to Vishnu
Bhagawan would praise Him.  

: They provide religious principles and some kind of world-view for such 
: persons so that
: they can do some pious activities and eventually come to the level of
: worshipping Vishnu as Supreme. 


: They can make whatever claims they want. But, what is the reliability of
: the scriptures which they quote to support such claims? 

They are Puranas written by Maharshi Veda Vyas.  That's their seal of
reliability.

: How many aachaaryas
: have written commentaries on the Shiva Puraana or Devi Bhaagavata, for
: example? Not many I would wager. 

I don't see what that has to do with anything.  More commentaries have
been written on Shakuntala than any Purana.

: Certainly the saattvik Puraanas such as
: Vishnu and Bhaagavata have received much more attention. Their internal
: consistency, a qualification the Puraanas in the other two modes often
: lack, merits such serious consideration, even from a nonVaishnava point of
: view.
:

True but there are Puranas of the other two gunas which meet the 5
lakshana test which is all the consistency that's needed.  And even
Bhagavat Purana has omissions here and there.  In its description of the
puranas it doesn't mention the classification by guna at all.  And Radha
who plays such an important part in some Vaishnava sampradayas isn't
mentioned at all.  

 
:   The mistake all Ishvaravadis make is to read to
: > much into the arthavada portions of the shastras. 
: 
: What do you mean by arthavada? 
: 

Dharma consists of various actions.  Some are to be done (vidhi) and some
are to be avoided (nishedha)  But a good part of Veda and Puranas don't
deal with commands.  Are they then useless?  No part of the Veda can be
considered seless by an Astika.  So the Mimamsakas say these statements
are arthavada or statements in support of Dharma.  Some of them explain
the purpose of a command or prohibition.  Some are a form of "advertising"
if you will to encourage people to do or not do certain things.

: You are quite incorrect. The Bhaagavatam does away with all mundane forms
: of religious principles and concentrates instead on the essence -- Krishna
: prema. In the very beginning of this illustrious work, Suuta Gosvaamii
: states:
: 
: sa vai pu`msaa`m paro dharmo
:  yato bhakti adhok.saje
: ahaituky apratihataa
:  yayaatmaa suprasiidati (SB 1.2.6)
: 
: "The supreme occupation [dharma] for all humanity is that by which men can
: attain to loving devotional service unto the transcendent Lord. Such
: devotional service must be unmotivated and uninterrupted to completely
: satisfy the self."
: 
: So you see, the supreme dharma is declared here to be that which leads to
: bhakti. All other forms of religious principles or work which does not lead
: to this point is simply considered useless. 
: 

Yes but that bhakti involves _doing_ things.  It is not enough to simply
believe in Krishna Bhagavan.  The idea is the bhakta will be extremely
rigourous in his practice of Dharma because he believes it pleases
Bhagawan.

: Furthermore, the idea that stories praising different deities is "just
: there to praise dharmic acts" is also refuted by the Bhaagavatam itself, at
: least in the sense of the word dharmic that I assume you mean. In chapter 5
: of the first skandha, Naarada describes how by hearing Krishna-kathaa, he
: gradually got free of ignorance. It is also stated:
: 
: na.s.ta-praaye.sv abhadre.su
:   nitya`m bhaagavata-sevayaa
: bhagavaty uttama-s'loke
:   bhakti bhavati nai.s.thikii
: 
: "By regular attendance in class on the Bhaagavatam and by rendering of
: service to the pure devotee, all that is troublesome to the heart is almost
: completely destroyed, and loving service unto the Personality of Godhead,
: who is praised with transcendental songs, is established as an irrevocable
: fact." (SB 1.2.18)
: 

This is a perfect example of the kind of advertising I'm refering to.  The
purpose of verses like these is to teach the Dharmik duty of reading the
Bhagavat Purana.  One finds similiar verses all over the place in the
Puranas.  In fact there is a name for it:  phalastuti.

: Without a doubt, the importance of hearing stories of Krishna and His
: exalted devotees is established as one of the primary means by which we in
: Kali-Yuga can attain the supreme goal. 
: 

Note: "one of."

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