Is this irreligious?
Subject: Is this irreligious?
From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Manish Tandon)
Date: Thu, 27 Oct 1994 18:39:59 GMT
Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
Jaldhar Vyas <email@example.com> wrote:
|> > Most people in this age are irreligious, and thus if you see meat-eating,
|> > it should be understood that this is part of the aformentioned moral
|> > degeneration.
|> But the Bengalis in question eat meat after offering it to Durga. This
|> is not irreligiousity unless you consider the worship of Durga to be
|> irreligious. Do you?
|> -- Jaldhar
To begin with, there is a problem with word for word translation from
Sanskrit to English.
In sanskrit, we have the words, 'bhagavan' and 'devata'.
The closest mach for 'bhagavan' is God, but for 'devata', there is no one
word, that is why Srila Prbhupada used the word "demigod" for 'devata'
which has its roots in the Judeo-Christian religions, however it does exists
in the english dictionaries.
The word 'bhagavan' is never used in the plural sense/form in _any_ Vedic
scriptures. In fact the very idea of God turns absolutely meaningless as
soon as someone says "Gods". One ignorant person (pseudo follower of advaita)
however tried to convince me once that Supreme doesn't mean Uniquely Supreme.
We dismiss *any* such claim as arrant nonsense since it is contrary to both
scriptures AND reason.
However, the scriptures say that there are many 'devatas', actually the
number given is 330 million! The logic is that for every function in the
material world, there is a presiding deity, i.e. a 'devata'.
Shiva, Parvati (aka Durga, Kali, Devi, etc.), Ganesha (obviously, being the
son of Shiva and Parvati), Indra, Brahma, et. al. are 'devata'.
NO Vedic scripture (Vedas, Upanisadas, Puranas, Vedanta-sutra, and the two
itihas - Ramayana and Mahabharat) ever say that Shiva or Parvati or Ganesha
etc. have anything to do with what is beyond the three lokas 'tri-lokas',
i.e. their status as 'devatas' is confirmed. They are **NOT** 'bhagavan.
A lot of people mistakenly translate both 'bhagavan' and 'devata' as God. On
s.c.i.t. one ignorant person once said that in the Indian system, there are
330 million Gods!!!!
Durga (who is maya, i.e. the para-shakti of the Purushottama - Supreme Lord)
is infact the chief/head deity/devata of the tri-lokas and can award any
material (read "mundane") benediction, and for that reason, some of the
scriptures (even Puranas) do infact call her 'bhavani' i.e. the goddess of the
three plenetary system, which are, (1) 'swarga-lokas' -- the upper plenetary
system, (2) 'madhya/mritu-lokas' -- the middle plenetary system (includes the
earth, and (3) 'patala-lokas' -- the lower plenetary system (aka Hell :-)).
There is **NO** contridiction in the Vedic scriptures as to the status of
'bhagavan' -- the Absolute Truth and 'devatas' unless you want to fabricate
one out of your imagination by twisting the meaning of some verse or simply
spreading the rumor that so and so said that such and such Purana tell that
Durga or Ganesha etc is 'bhagavan'. Period.
Both advaita and dvaita schools agree that there is something beyond these
three worlds (lokas).
Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita, 8.16
"From the highest planet (Brahmaloka) in the material world (universe
- lokah) down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein
repeated birth and death takes place. But one who attains to My
abode, O son of Kunti, never takes birth again."
There are also verses in the Upanisads which confirm this.
So, the ritual of worshiping Durga and Shiva etc. is authorized in some of
the scriptures for people aspiring for material elevation, therefore such
stuff falls under the category of 'karma-kanda'.
However, Lord Krishna (Purushottama, Veda Vyasa was intelligent enough to
precede the sections where He speeks with 'Sri Bhagavan uvacha') says:
9.23 "Those who are devotees of demigods (anya-devata) and who worship
them with faith actually worship only Me, O son of Kunti, but
they do so in a wrong way (avidhi-purvakam)."
Note the words 'anya-devata' and 'avidhi-purvakam'.
So coming back to your point <huff-puff>, "unless you consider the worship
of Durga to be irreligious. Do you?"
We do not consider the worship of Durga to be irreligious as such HOWEVER
since Bhagavan Himself told that such acts are 'avidhi-purvakam', we say
that it is against the process, i.e. it is on the edge of what is
religious and irreligious.
By following the karma-kanda section of the Vedic scriptures (including
worship of Durga), one can move up and down within the three worlds, but
since they are all places of misery, a wise person would want to get out
of it, so it is natural that such a person who has understood what is what
will dismiss karma-kanda as foolish (as it causes bondage of the soul) and
can even call it "irreligious" and be technically correct.
And, the Bengalis (and others) who eat meat (even after offering to Kali or
any other 'devata') are *grossly foolish*. Most of such people are either
unaware of the fact that there is somthing beyond the three worlds (evident
by their considering the 'devatas' as God) OR don't have complete faith in
jnana-kanda sections of the scriptures. One person even said to me once that
he believes in God, however he also believes that he is enjoying here in this
world so he doesn't want to go to what is beyond that what we see since he
has no idea what would it be like to be there!
|> But the Bengalis who eat meat worship Devi who doesn't have such
|> scruples. So there is nothing wrong with it unless you are saying there
|> is something wrong with worshipping Devi in which case how do you explain
|> Gita 17:4 Note it says Devan not Krshnan.
That is very smart of you trying to teach us what is there in the Bhagavad
Gita, however, in the next 45 seconds, you will discover that it what not
all that smart a manoeuvre.
17.4 "Men in the mode of goodness worship the demigods (devan); those in
the mode of passion worship the deamons; and those in the mode of
ignorance worship ghosts and spirits."
7.13 "Deluded by the three modes (tribhir-guna-mayaih), the whole world
does not know Me, who am above the modes (ebhyah) and inexhaustible
7.20 "Those whose intelligence has been stolen (hrta-jnanah) by material
desires (kamaih) surrender unto demigods (anya-devatah) and follow
the particular rules and regulations of worship according to there
7.23 "Men of small intelligence (alpa-medhasam) worship the demigods
(devan), and their fruits a limited and temporary. Those who worship
the demigogs go to the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach
My Supreme abode."
14.20 "When the embodied being is able to transcend (atitya) these three
modes (tri-gunas), he can become free from birth, death, old age
and their distresses and can enjoy nectar even in this life."
If you cannot laugh on yourself, come over here, we are doing it for you.