In article <email@example.com>,
Jaldhar Vyas <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
>to that is, ok so what? By that standard I could be considered a
>Vaishnava too as I use the standard Gujarati greeting "Jai Shri Krshna",
>I go to a Pushti Margi Mandir and I've preached the Bhagavata before a
>crowd of 300 people. Smarta are not against the worship of Krshna. We
>just reject the idea that worshipping any God is the cause of Moksha.
>Only jnana is. Also Shankaracharya has written many other stotras
Since you claim to be a Bhagavatam scholar, you should also know these
Bhagavata verses about gaining moksa without devotion to Krishna.
Yes, one may attain moksa, but--then one falls again:
ye 'nya ravindaksa vimukta-maninah etc. (SB 10.2.32)
And in fact one hardly does attain liberation:
sreyah-srtim bhaktim udasye te vibho (SB 10.14.4)
>: And to enlighten you here again, the Puranas tells us that even Brahama and
>: Shiva try there best to take birth as human beings on the planet earth
>: in the
>: Kali Yuga, because _only_ in this age can one practice the bhakti-yoga so
>Well good for Them if thats what They are interested in. They don't have to.
You say they don't have to; that should be _even more proof_ that
bhakti is the best path, because it attracts great souls who
don't even need to do it!
>: There is NO conflict in any of the Puranas.
>: Please substanciate your claim BY CITING VERSE(S) FROM SOME PURANA(S) in
>:case you disagree with my statement and I will show you why you are wrong.
>There is only conflict in the shastras if we take every word literally.
>See the excerpts I'm going to post soon from the Shiva Purana.
>excerpts from the Shiva Purana I'm going to post, Krishna worships Shiva
>in the same way.
If you do post this, that'll also be just more proof that Shiva
is a great devotee of Krishna, as we know from Krishna's pastimes
in Mahabharata & Bhagavatam (the one you spoke about to 300 people), that
Krishna _only_ worships & serves his devotees. For example, he doesn't offer
his respects to the ritualistic brahmins in the famous Brahmana-Patni story, but
he does wash the feet & offer worship to his dear friend & brahmin
devotee Sudama, while the Supreme Goddess of Fortune Rukminidevi fans the
tired Sudama. Similarly, we know that Krishna lead the worship of
Giri Govardhan, described as the greatest servant of Lord Hari, and also
the servant of the devotees, and also as Krishna himself. Krishna gains
so much pleasure from serving his devotees that he came as Giriraj _just
for that purpose_. Krishna also worships Tulasi Devi and the cows
of Vrindavan, especially on Go-puja and Gopastami. And
of course, Krishna serves his great devotee Arjuna as his charioteer.
So, if Krishna offers respects to Shiva that should be no big surprise, as
Shiva is the greatest Vaishnav.
Therefore, there is no contradiction in the Puranas.
>I was following the Gita and other shastras years before I'd even heard
>of your cult.
When all else fails call your opponents a cult. Nice try, Jaldhar.
Some Christians have already tried this same tactic, but it didn't
stick to ISKCON. Congratulations for servilely, doggishly following the
lead of the Christians.
>: As you yourself said in another place "Even the Nirguna Brahman has the
>: attributes of Sat, Chit, and Ananda".
>Sat, Chit, and Ananda are not polluted by the 3 gunas. The Vaishnavas
>would have us believe that such things as the Sudarshana Chakra and the
>Kaustubha Mani are nirguna when they are quite obviously material
Have you actually read the Bhagavatam or did you just speak on it
after reading the dust jacket? Why are they obviously material objects --
they are clearly from the spiritual world of Vaikuntha and have
nothing to do with the material energy. This is stressed throughout
the Bhagavatam that Vaikuntha has nothing to do with the modes
of material nature.
Even Sankara said Narayana paro'vyaktat. Narayana is completely
transcendental to the material manifestation, so he clearly cannot
have contact with material objects. As he is constantly in touch
with Sudarshana & Kaustubha, they cannot be material objects,
but are clearly part of the spiritual potency, full of Sat, Chit,