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Vedanta (1 of 4)
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Subject: Vedanta (1 of 4)
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From: manish@cadence.com (Manish Tandon)
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 1995 22:26:01 GMT
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Apparently-To: alt-hindu@uunet.uu.net
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From news@cadence.com Thu Mar 16 17: 15:51 1995
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Newsgroups: alt.hindu
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Organization: Cadence Design Systems, Inc.
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Sender: news@cadence.com
The biggest asset of a lier is his ability to lie but that's what gets him in
the end.
namo om vishnu padaya krishna prasthaya bhu tale
srimate bhaktivedanta swamin iti namine
om ajnana timirandhasya jnananjana salakaya
caksur unmilitan yena tasmai sri- gurave namah
om brahman satyam jagan mithya
Brahman alone is - Ekameva Adviteeyam Brahma
The advaita-vadins say:
viShaya: advaita ackwnolodges Jeevan Mukti. The perception of "I" is due to
ahankara/ignorance and after liberation, there is no more I, for that
One aloe is.
To that we reply:
samSaya: But mukti means end of bondage and since you say "I" is due to
ahankara/ignorance which means after mukti, there should be no more
I since that would render mukti meaningless, i.e. if ignorance still
remains than liberation from what?
Afterall, the fact that the existence of the self is axiomatic has
been accepted in all quarters although the definition of what self is
varies within different schools like Biology, Physics, Metaphysics,
Vedanta, Buddhism, etc. Even to say that self does not exist, you
have to exist that it does. Also as a minimum, the definition of
self refers to the body.
Now when you talk of Jeevan mukti, that inherently implies the
continuation of the gross body, i.e. life. So such a Jeevan mukt
person should able to say "I" do not exist since Brahman alone is,
but that is not possible because that violates the axiom and an axiom
cannot be violated by definition otherwise it won't be an axiom.
Also, you may say, well that liberated person would not say that he
doesn't exist rather he would say, "Brahman alone is and it is all
pervading". But that is just a roundabout way of saying "I am not"
since alone by definition requires that nothing else be.
So the duality remains.
The advaita-vadins say:
viShaya: That realized person would has transcended the very thought of I or
not I after attaining Jeevan mukti.
To that we reply:
samSaya: But that doesn't change the situation one bit. When someasks that
realized person, a question who would it be the one that will answer?
Obviously it will be him, so he exists, but existence (ego) is due to
ignorance so that means he is not liberated. You may say that he has
become Brahman but that is contridictory to the sruti which says
Brahman is eternally unchanging so no question of someone becoming
Brahman.
So the duality remains after mukti.
That means either duality must be true (eternally) or mukti must not
happen until death rather Jevan mukti should only imply the feeling
of liberation not real liberation. But that does not make sense
because if it is only a feeling within a still bound person, it can
be lost in this very lifetime since feelings exist in the mind.
The advaita-vadins say:
viShaya: You are trying to analyse that which can only be realized hence you
see the contridiction.
To that we reply:
samSaya: Not so. If we grant you that it would mean that such a liberated
person (since he is free from ignorance) should not respond to
an ignorant persons act. So if an ignorant person sees him and hurl
a stone at him, it should not hurt him nor shoulh he run away. But
he would. You may say well you see him running because you are still
under illusion. But that is not true because if the stone is to hit
him, blood may come out and remain there even after he leaves that
place.
You may say that blood is also an illusion, but than the question
comes if all you see is illusion and a liberated person doesn't sees
or feels than there is acommunication gap there, i.e. a person
under ignorance would never be able to communicate with a
realized person so who would guide the ignorant?
Also how would one distinguish between a Jeevan mukta and a person
under inorance? It would be utter chaos. The liberated would not
see what the unliberated would and the unliberated would not
comprehend the liberated. So there would be no guru and disciple.
Anyone would cliam himself a Jeevan mukta just by saying that he is
not seeing what others are and so the fool will lead the fools, where
do the yall go? What will happen to dharma?
Save for chance there would be no more order.
The advaita-vadins say:
viShaya: Well the liberated would see what the unliberated see and still not
see that.
To that we reply:
samSaya: But that is receprocally contridictory because you cannot see and
not see simultaneously.
Also the unliberated sees because the mind creates the image and the
mind itself is the cause of illusion so if the liberated is seeing
implies his mind is still active and since mind is very strong he
can still fall back. So the liberated can become unliberated.
What good is such liberation?
And not to forget that advaita says brahman alone is that implicitly
says that "I" am not so in this false world (jagan mithya) of false
people, what is to be liberated???
There is no question of liberation of illusion from illusion.
What a foolish theroy!!
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Epilogue: advaita cannot explain Jeevan-mukti and so the claim made by the
advaita-vadins about their philosophy being all inclusive is not
true because sruti does refers to Jeevan mukti.
The advaitans should give up their ahankara and recognize the
existence of the jivatmas of the nature of Brahman for that is
their cause and hence they are to serve that.
Realizing one's real position is real mukti from liberation.
Vedas clearly mentions four types of liberation
salokya - living in the abode of Lord
samipya - living in the proximity of Lord
sarupya - living with a form identical with Lord
sayujya - merging in the body of Lord
Atleast the first 3 are all contridictory to the adviatic idea of
Brahman alone is because the liberated can not exist seperately if
One alone is.
Thus ends Part 1 of Shankaracharya's puppet show.
*** Om namo bhagvate vasudevaya - janmady asya yatah ***
