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chandran.burke@juno.com (Ram V Chandran) wrote:
> Sankar Jayanarayanan <kartik@Eng.Auburn.EDU> wrote:
[..]
> > > The Bhagavad Gita stresses the
> importance
> > > of work obligations and the necessity for their fulfillment. The
^^^^^^^^
> most
^^^^^^
> > > important message of Gita is the assertion that actions are
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> inevitable
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > and excuses are unforgivable.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> > This is entirely wrong. No doubt the Gita recognizes the importance of
> work
> > obligations, but Krishna urges Arjuna to give up the thought "I am the
> doer"
> > and do his duty _without any thought to the fulfillment of the
> actions_.
> > To such a person, all action is not only forgivable, but the spiritual
> seeker
> > becomes sinless!
>
> I hope that Kartik does not really imply that the whole paragraph
> or the article is entirely wrong by his statement - "This is entirely
> wrong."
I'm sorry to have inadvertently implied such a meaning in my earlier posting.
I meant to deny only the portion that I have underlined.
You surely must know about the "Kshampana" that is recited at the end of most
stotras. It is to beg forgiveness from the Lord for the mistakes that might
have crept in during the recital of the stotra.
If the most important message of the Gita was that excuses were unforgivable,
there would be no compassion/mercy/grace on the part of the Ishvara.
[..]
> Lord Krishna informs Arjun that he has
> to change his attitude and free his SELF detached from the results from
> fighting the war. For a warrior, war has no consequences but for a
> brother, a father, a student etc., war has consequences. This message is
> not just for Arjun but for fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters, teachers,
> warriors, computer programmers and particularly for intellectual debaters
> like me and Kartik! We the debaters seem to believe that our point of
> view is the only way and that everyone else is necessarily wrong!
>
No. I do not consider myself an intellectual debater who has a perfect
understanding of the Gita. I'm only trying to understand the Gita a little
better, that's all.
> A self-realized person is only free from the notion of "DUTY"
> and human life is never free from duties.
Does the Self-realized person see himself as a human? I don't think so.
But I do know that the brahma sutras say that for a Self-realized person, *all*
action (not simply the notion thereof), including future ones, have been burned
up.
[..]
> > > Gita describes the relationships between sensory perception,
> ego,
> > > human intelligence and divine intelligence. According to Gita, the
> > > sensory perceptions are the barriers for gaining the divine
> intelligence.
> > > Ego is the byproduct of sensory perception. Ego distracts human
> > > intelligence to lose its discriminating power. Consequently the
> intellect
> > > misidentifies SELF by body, mind and intellect.
>
>
> > This is too confusing. The intellect does no such thing.
>
> I am sorry that you are confused. I have no intention to confuse
> you and I do not want to guess what you are confused. Please explain
> what is exactly confusing so that I can help if I can.
I do not understand how the intellect, which is itself illumined by the Self,
can misidentify itself with the Self. For the Self is that which illumines,
not that which is illumined.
The locus of misidentification is not the intellect.
> If I were you, I will try to remove my preconceived notions and try to
> understand with an open mind. When we free ourselves from our attachments
> to our preconceived notions, we can observe objectively! Freeing our
> mind from the attitude of "I know everything," we can abandon confusion,
> ego and illusions.
>
But to think that one can avoid confusion by removing our pre-conceived
notions is itself a pre-conceived notion before the process of abandoning
pre-conceived notions begins.
Of course, one could remove pre-conceived notions like forgetting the Sanskrit
language, which wouldn't help much in understanding the Gita, which is in
Sanskrit. (I hope you wouldn't say that the fact that I believe the Gita to be
in Sanskrit is itself a pre-conceived notion which should be given up!)
> > According to the advaita Vedanta, the SELF identifies itself (or
> misidentifies
> > as you call it) with something that is not the SELF. For example, it is
> in the
> > human tendency to say things like "I am fair" or "I am fat" thus
> superimposing
> > the color of the skin or the weight of the body on the SELF, and this
> > phenomenon is known as avidya (ignorance). When avidya is removed, one
> attains
> > Self-realization.
>
> Religion is an attempt to explain the nature, purpose and goal of
> human life and the relationship(unity or separation) of human and Divine.
> Different religions have different visions on the relationship between
> human and Divine.
> Advaitins believe that there is no distinction between human and
> Divine. They argue that the separation between human and divine is the
> imagination of the programmed human mind, pervaded by its ignorance
> (Avidya). The purpose of human life for an Advaitin is to negate Avidya
> through spiritual practice (sadhana).
The purpose of sadhana in advaita is _not_ to negate avidya, but to negate
the differences that are fancied through avidya. What is left after all
the differences are denied is the Self-luminous Brahman, which cannot be
negated.
> The viSishTAdvaitins on the other hand believe that human and
> Divine are separate entities and the purpose of human life is for
> unification with the Divine. They argue that Divine Grace is essential
> for the unification of human soul with the Divine and the human has to
> surrender the ego through spiritual practice.
> There is ultimate unity between these two diversified beliefs of
> Advaitins and viSishTAdvaitins in the end! Logical starting points may
> appear different but the end point is the same. They both ascertain the
> importance of freeing the mind from ego through discipline and dedicated
> service to the humanity. For the purpose of pure intellectual analysis,
> they are mathematically equivalent concepts. In abstract algebra it is
> possible to establish different sets of assumptions and rules to arrive
> at the same outcome. The analytical part of Vedanta is northing more
> than high-level abstract algebra. It is no wonder why Sankara and
> Ramanuja, the two great mathematical geniuses, came to the same
> conclusion! For Sankara, the lack of spiritual practice is the cause for
> the illusory duality. For Ramanuja, the human experience of duality is
> real but with spiritual practice, it is possible to get out of the
> duality.
For Ramanuja, one can never "get out of" duality, if I remember correctly.
Duality is a reality.
> Both these great masters have emphasized the importance of
> freeing the mind from ego to realize the Divinity.
>
Firstly, Shankara says that the Self does not need to be freed. Freedom is
the very nature of the Self. It is due to ignorance that the Self is imagined
to be bound. When ignorance is removed, the Self is known to be ever-free.
Shankara does not want to free the mind from the ego. He wants to destroy
the identification of the Self with the ego. In his upadesasahasri, Shankara
says that even the mind exists only as a result of superimposition of the
Self on it. The mind has no existence as an ultimate reality. Only the Self
exists in all levels of reality. That is why it is an absolute.
[..]
> > Please do not misconstrue the message of the Gita to be a formula for
> success
> > in the world of karma. Rather, the Gita asks man not to be perturbed by
> success
> > or failure! The Gita cannot make one a successful lawyer, doctor,
> political
> > leader or corporate executive. Rather, it can make one understand that
> the real
> > SELF is _not_ a lawyer, doctor, political leader or corporate
> executive!
>
> No one has yet devised a formula for success in this world and no
> one can ever devise such a formula for success. You do not seem to agree
> with what I say here and that is your privilege. This does not imply
> that I am wrong or you are right! We have different perception of Gita
> and there can be many perceptions. Gita has subtle messages for success
> in everyone's life and this has been expressed by such notable scholars
> including Dr. Radhakrishnan, Mahatma Gandhi, Tilak and others. Here is
> a quotation on human attitude from the Upanishads - "We can never change
> the world but we can change ourselves to enjoy the world as it is!" The
> attitude of the person is the most important aspect of his (her) success
> or failure!
The Gita is a formula for "success" in the spiritual world. It helps one to
lose identification with the body, mind and senses and realize the true Self,
which is the only thing worth being labelled as "success" -- not the transitory
success in this material world.
According to Krishna, the attitude of a person ought not to be "I should
be successful." Rather, the attitude ought to be "I shall do my duty without
thought of success or failure."
Gita (2.48):
"Perform your duty equipoised, O Arjuna, abandoning all attachment to success
or failure. Such equanimity is called yoga." (Translation by BBT, used with
permission)
> Vyasa was very careful to discriminate between divine (infinite)
> and human (finite) qualities. Stithaprajna, an absolute measure is a
> divine quality that can be attained only at a divine state. Geeta
> describes three finite dimensional human qualities: (1) Satvik -
> illumination, goodness, and non binding, (2) Rajasik - passion,
> attachment and agitated mind, and (3) Tamasik - inaction, ignorance and
> illusions. According to Geeta, these three modes are present in all
> human beings, though in different degrees. Satvik people are free, calm
> and selfless. Rajasik people wish to be always active and cannot sit
> still and the activities are tainted by selfish desires. Tamasik people
> subject their life to continuous submission to surrounding environment
> and they are confused and dull. Geeta asserts that a predominance of one
> or a combination of one or more of these characteristics determine human
> behavior. Episodes in Mahabharat and Puranas describe roles that require
> various combinations of Satvik, rajasik and Tamasik qualities. These
> qualities determine the human attitude toward life and human success or
> failure.
> No one can ever know what is the state of "SELF" at the divine
> (infinite) state. But in the human (finite) state, we are bound to make
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> mistakes and we are faced with success and failures.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
No doubt about that. But the Gita asks us not to be attached to either of them.
> Have you understood what the "real SELF" is?
>
No one can ever deny the Self. It is not completely beyond comprehension,
since it is apprehended by the concept "I" and everyone knows the Self. But I
do not think I know it well, for I (mis)identify the Self with the mind and
the intellect.
[..]
> Dear Kartik:
>
> Thanks for your comments and further insights. Your comments
> give another perspective of Gita. I believe that Geeta is a revelation
> from Lord Krishna and as such full comprehension is possible only with
> His grace. Each individual has the freedom to choose the level of
> comprehension as desired. I have never claimed that I have full
> comprehension of Geeta! I am fully aware that I know very little of
> Geeta! Mistakes do happen at every moment of my life and sometime I am
> aware of it and at other times I have to depend on others like you. Your
> comments strongly support my view that the world is interrelated and we
> act and react without knowing we do! I am glad that you have taken some
> time to read and comment on my posting and I am thankful to you for your
> insights. Wish you all the best and my regards
> Ram
>
Wish you the very same.
Regards,
Kartik
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